are relationships possible with a narcissist

[genie]

Beth, In response to your question about warning signs do check out sam vaknin. He covers this VERY well....as in "how to spot an N on the first date. "30 years ago when I hooked up with my N this imformation wasn't available. The signs were all there but like so many I was in love with all his charming parts and overlooked/accepted the other stuff.
Now that I have lived thru it all and survived I see these guys everywhere and women also. They do seem to attract good,caring,compassionate,self-sacrificing partners. I am amazed how often women describe themselves as "self-sacrificing"(myself included) as thou that is a quality to be proud of. Now I understand that to sacrifice the "self" is a huge mistake.so please anyone who finds themselves in that position,think again!!!! Only when we are strong,healthy and caring for our"selves" can we ever love or help others.
When you have children with an N sacrificing for your children comes with the territory.
The signs are always there but unfortunately most of us that hook up with these guys have our own "issues" that we are blind to or we would walk away after the first meeting. They are charmers,big players,charismatic.....so we take the bait.......
Instead of mourning all the lost years I am thankful that I have been able to face and change my "issues" that I would have never done if I hadn't been in this crazy relationship. Once I did I was no longer a person who would live like that. Many women leave one N only to end up with another.
That won't happen to me!!! I think one of the other affects one must overcome after life with an N is a fear of trusting in love....after having been so duped and used,fooled....well you kind of don't trust your instincts.....but whatever issues you had that drew you to such a person CAN be healed.....their "issues" can't....they are stuck......best wishes to all of you and take comfort that you aren't alone and there are others who do understand....thanks for this forum...genie

[Ella Scott]

I'm often asked how I could have fallen for such a man. What others don't understand is that in the beginning narcissists sweep you off your feet. They put on a brilliant act and do and say everything your dream man would say. Narcissists are smart and they can quickly figure out what you want in a man and play the part beautifully.

Once a narcissist has obtained control of you in some way (either you're blindly in love with him, you've moved in with him or you've married him), his true colors start to surface. At that point, you've typically committed to him in a way that makes it difficult to quickly pull out of the relationship. From there, it's a roller coaster ride and an endless mind game. When I did confront him about things I noticed in him that I didn't like, he would lay on the charm so fast that I would completley forget whatever concern I had.

They are master manipulators. The key is to recognize their behavior before you get sucked in, fall in love, and pass the point of no return. This is the purpose of my book....to create awareness to narcissism so people can recognize it before it's too late.

While they put on an act in the beginning, there are some signs to look for that can put one on alert. I believe these are: overconfidence, arrogance, talking in the third person, making fun of others, feeling superior, being controlling and always having to be right. These are some signs that I know I ignored in the beginning because I thought he was so wonderful in every other way. In my book, I talk in more detail about warning signs. It's hard to see them, but if you know what to look for, it can help.

Why do we want them to wake up someday and be different? Because we refuse to accept that they are not the man we fell in love with... we want to think he's just going through some type of phase and he will snap out of it. I remember constantly fantasizing that things would someday return to the way they were in the beginning of our relationship. I held onto that hope for years and years. I refused to believe that the man I fell madly in love with and wanted to be the father of my children was a phony and a fraud. This is a difficult thing for anyone to accept. It's much easier to hope he will change. Unfortunately, in the end, I had to accept he would never change. The only person I can change is myself. This is what I live by today and it helps.

Thank you all for posting and sharing your thoughts and advice. It's incredibly helpful to know I'm not alone.

[carol]

WELL HE DID IT AGAIN. YESTERDAY HIS CHECK CAME IN AND YES HE DID GIVE ME SOME MONEY.
THEN HE WENT OVER TO A FRIENDS HOUSE FOR A 'FEW BEERS' AND THE 'OTHER THING HE DOES'.WELL I WENT OVER THERE AFTER ABOUT 12HRSOF NOT HEARING FROM HIM,AND SENCE HE HAS DONE THAT A LOT LATELY I JUST WANTED TO SEE THINGS FOR MY SELF.WELL ALL LOOKED INNOCENT,HE WAS HIS HAPPY SELF,AND SWEET TO ME,BUT DIDN;T SEEM TO MIND THAT I WAS GOING ON HOME,EVEN WALKED ME TO MY CAR,AND SAID I;LL HAVE A COUPLE OF MORE BEERS AND BE ON HOME!
WELL AFTER 6 MORE HRS AND NO WORD,GOD SUCH DISRESPECT,I GAVE A CALL OVER THERE AND TOLD HIM I WOULD LEAVE HIS STUFF ON THE DOOR STEPS.
WELL IT;S MORNING NOW AND I GUESS HE HAS FINALLY FOUND HIS NEW NS SUPPLY.
GOD PLEASE GIVE ME THE STRENGTH TO IGNOR HIM THIS TIME AND END THIS INSANITY IN MY LIFE.
SENCE I LOST MY JOB IT IS GOING TO BE HARD WITHOUT HIS INCOME ,BUT I REALLY NEVER KNOW IF HE WILL STAY TO HELP OR NOT AND LATELEY HE HAS BEEN MORE VERBABLY ABUSIVE AND ATTACKING ME VERBABLY,I REMEMBER NOW THAT WAS HOW HE ACTED TO THE EX,WHEN HE WAS WORKING ON ME TO BE HIS NEXT SUPPLIER.
THANKS FOR LISTINING AND IF ANYONE HAS ANY ADVICE I SURE DO NEED IT.I AM SO SCARED I WILL GIVE IN AGAIN AND I KNOW JUST WHAT THE DEAL IS,BUT AFTER MONTHS OF BEEING BRAINWASHED,I FEEL JUST LIKE A CAPTURE.
THANKS AGAIN FOR BEEING HERE.
CAROL

[Ella Scott]

Carol - I'm so sorry to hear he did it again. You must stay away. You cannot let him back into your life. He will keep you on this roller-coaster as long as you let him. This is it. You're done. You have one life to live. Do not live it wasting time with him. He will do nothing but play with your head and he is not capable of love. Every charming and wonderful thing he tells you is a lie. He can't help it. If he had a choice, I'm sure he would love to be able to feel and empathize, but he can't. In his own strange way, he does love you, but you must understand, it's not the type of love most of us know. He doesn't know what that is because he's never experienced it. You need to put an end to it immediately before you get sucked in even more. I know it's hard. Believe me, but in the long run, you will be happy you reclaimed yourself. Wouldn't you rather be alone, happy and have no complications, than be with a man that you have to treat with kid gloves. It's like having a child. I'm sure you don't need to take care of a child right now. You need mature, adult love and narcissists are incapable of this. You will be much happier alone than wrapped up in his madness. Eventually, you will meet someone who is capable of real and genuine love. Be patient. I know it's hard. Life is messy. One of the things I have had to learn to live with is the fact that as much as I'd like to have certainty in life, it's really not possible. I'd like things to be black and white, but they're not. Life is gray and you have to learn to live in the gray. Uncertainty is part of life. There are things you do know, however, and based on that knowledge can make some changes in your life, right? Remember, the Serenity Prayer. You do know that he is incapable of love, right? So end it and stay strong. You do not know when you will meet someone in the future who is capable of love, but that's ok. This is something the majority of people in the world must live with. Be patient and okay living in the gray about your future love life. Be strong about what you know to be true and certain - he is incapable of love - and act on that. Shut him out for good! Hang in there and stay strong!

[massagelady1]

Carol, I am sorry he did it again , I know how hard it is not to go for the money , I let mine stay for a lousy hundred a week , but guess what when he left I actually saved money because my electric bill went way down , because he was home so much , and I didnt have to feed him . Also the gas and everything else . He just wasnt paying his own way . If you are short , try to get a llittle help from friends and family temporarilly , this dosent sound good and we hate to ask but my friends and family were so glad I got rid of him they helped me get back on my feet . Or take in a roommate if possible who can help with bills and take up space so you cant let him in again! Candice

[carol]

Thank you for replying,it helps so much to have others to help me.
I made another step this morning,was surprised that he didn;t call with an excuse of why he didn;t come home.So I just bagged up his stuff and went over to where he is 'suppose to be'and put it on the porch and took off.
Went and had a hair cut,bought new make-up and as you can guess,I;m home now and feel like oh!oh!
You get so use to the rollercoster of being with them,that the quite is so quite you don;t know what to do with the emptyness. I know I will have to give it some time.
Nothing can be as bad as when Pete died and I was alone for 3yrs.before I met Kurt,and the nightmare began.
I've got to quit being a "drama queen" as he called me and be satisfied with the quite.
Thank-you all again ,
carol

[rita]

Hi all you lovely people.
It is like we have all been in a relationship with the same guy. I endured nearly 20 years with mine, then he walked away as though I was a piece of s**t that meant nothing after all the years of deep caring I had showered on him. He saw me as only a financial gain to line his pockets which in the end he cleverly did in front of a court, lying through his back teeth and the court believed him. What a fine actor.
When I asked him why he was so disinterested in sex he denied it. Said it was my fault because I no longer initiated it. This was in the second year of the relationship. This is not normal for a normal man, I realise lots of things now, but I had never heard of narcisissm until we split up. Now I am scared to death of getting involved with another one, so much so that I will probably be alone forever. So he has theoretically ended any normal life that I might have had.

I could do with some positive advise about moving on. Thank you all for opening up on this amazing site.

Rita ):

[Ella Scott]

Carol - Great job dropping his stuff off on the porch and moving on. I know it's hard, but it will be well worth it. Being alone is not so bad. You can really get to know yourself when you have time to think with no distractions. Narcissists distract us from ourselves. They create drama and have needs that are so overwhelming that you feel like you're taking care of a child. Have you ever felt your needs were met while involved with a narcissist? I know the answer to this is no. That's because you were always taking care of his needs. You never stopped to think about what you needed, let alone take care of yourself. Cherish your alone time now. Do things that make you happy. You can do whatever you want, whenever you want. That can be a liberating feeling. Embrace it!

Rita - I'm sorry to hear you had to endure 20 years with a narcissist. While I know I'm certainly not a poster child for finding men that are not narcissistic, I do believe they are out there. They do exist. It's taken me a long time, but I'm finally starting to be able to differentiate the narcissistic phonies from the real deal. Never think in absolutes. You say you'll never be able to be in another relationship, but that's just how you feel right now. Trust me, you will not always feel this way. Someday you will meet a genuine person and be ready to open up and risk loving him. Without a risk, there can be no reward.

[SUe]

I think it all depends on the degree of Narcissism. My N has been married for years and it seems to work out mostly. They bicker all the time but they stay together. She has her children and friends. She adores him and seems to take the abuse and survive. I'd not like it but for her it seems to be a good life. I think she is puzzled by him and hurt by his jibes and put downs on a background level but he's been like that for years so it must be bearable.

He avoids family stuff by playing golf and going out without her and working late. He sees her as a good chef, mother and provider of a safe conventional home. But he does not feel any passion for her. They seldom have sex. He said that was her but since I ended our affair I'm beginning to see that it was probably him. He was all over me at first but he suddenly decided we should not have sex any more., I found it very hurtful.

I know I may get lynched, but as the other woman you see another side to these men. I think some of the less NPD types can get in touch with their true self, but it's very hard work for them and very risky. In an affair they feel safe and the first rush of attraction means their emotions are easier to access. I think I got to see and love the real man and he was very complicated and confused and scared. Fear was his overriding emotion. Sex with us, for him was genuinely a revelation. He found "in love"sex alien and mindblowing. On one level he was all about performance and showing off and acting out his fantasy but the intimacy we had was something new for him. It scared him and released him. I saw it in his eyes sometimes. Or he would tear up when we were lying together afterwards and say he was overwhelmed.

He finally used sexual fantasy to distance me - I can see that now. It became less about the love and more about his sexual hang ups.

I learned a year after we split that what I had suspected was true - he had been abused sexually by his stepfather. His childhood was dreadful on many levels. He had a lot of scars and he had built up these emotional walls to protect himself. I even asked him outright about it once. Two weeks later we were over......His wife still doesn't know. Only I and one other person knows in this world. I do think he loved me as much as he could love anyone and I got closer to him than anyone else.

But it can't last. Ns can't allow others to truly know them. The ending was horrific. They do the most hateful, hurtful things to push you away and deny all they told you in the heat of a relationship because they can't have you walking around knowing what you know.

So they do their best to make you think the good stuff was a mirage. Sam is past master at it isn't he?

I've never hated anyone so much as him, nor loved either. Living full time with a N must be emotional hell. Much as I adored him with all of my heart I knew pretty much from the start that I couldn't live with him. I think he felt horribly disappointed by that and I am not proud of letting him down. For a brief few weeks he thought he'd found the answer to his loneliness and the woman of his dreams. But I wasn't strong enough to enter a life I could see would be one of abuse and frustration.

My hat goes off to you who are on the other side of that and DO pour all your love into these men. It's needed, I assure you, even though they never let you see that. They are damaged children at heart and need a lot of mothering and freedom. You need to stay aloof or they abuse you. It's all done from fear.

Everything is their fear.

[Ella Scott]

Sue - Wow, I appreciate your honesty. You're right that everything they do is from fear. It's really sad. I do feel bad for them. As a significant other, no matter what you do, you cannot help him though. He uses relationships to fill a void rather than deal with his issues. I really think we need to stay away so that they do deal with their issues, rather than use a relationship to put a band-aid on their wounds. As a signifiacnt other, it's so confusing. It starts out like a whirlwind romance where he treats you like a queen. You wake up years later and realize he purposefully frustrates you, emotionally and sexually, subtly puts you down and criticizes all you do. It's a living hell, especially when all you're trying to do the whole time is love him unconditionally. The more love you show him, the more he rejects you and criticizes you. Deep down, they think we're pathetic for putting up with their crap. That doesn't stop them from controlling and using us though. They can't help themselves. It's the only way they know how to be.

[srm114]

What Ella said is the absolute truth. They both need you and despise you at the same time. I remember my ex-Significant Other N - he is an ex now, I have managed to cut the cord - saying to me on one of the many occasions that I returned to him after being booted out, "What I'm doing to you is abuse, you know." That startled me but I didn't care at the time. Too busy submerging myself to win his favor - no wonder he secretly despised me. Not that I call myself despicable, don't get me wrong. I simply wanted to believe that the way he was leading me was real and I did a lot emotional "filling in" to meet those gaps of obvious indifference on his part. That's what I'm grieving for now - the delusion that I created that it was real between us. I guess time will take care of that.

[massagelady1]

Hello,
Sue , your letter brought back many memories for me . I was the only one of two people in my ns life . I felt privleged that he picked me . His aquaintences and associates treated me special because they all thought he was so cool,They didnt like him but they all tried to "Ride his cool . " N used to drink and tell me stories of his childhood.Dad was a professional whose intellect was said to be "off the charts" . Mom was a pretty ,soft spoken lady from the south.He loved his mom and watched her get beat every day . Dad liked to upset the family dinner table loaded with food and dishes for 8. While the whole family suffered, N and his mother got the worst of it He threw dad out of the house when he was 16.He grew up troubled and in trouble , He was a teenaged father who partied hard and grew up in prison . Mom died young . The siblings drifted , unable to reconsile their pasts with their present. When we got together he said I was just like mom! I was kind like her, we had the same hair and were the same size. I looked like her when I did dishes .I made him feel better . He was reclusive . God of the underworld.I worshipped him . We loved to massage each other . He opened the windows at night so we could cuddle between cold sheets naked. I loved the way he smelled. He has the most beautiful hair and hands. He was both bashful and boylike, Or strong , cool, masculine steel.We fell into each others eyes. We got engaged, he told a well wisher "we created for each other when the stars were born." We slept like puppies and had picnics on the livingroom floor. He said I kissed like a guppie. No man has ever wanted to be with me as much. This is the N I will always love.Sometimes I think that since I cant be with him I might as well marry anyone just so I wont be alone thinking of him.I feel bad about our last meetings when I ignored him and walked away.What would have happened if I had turned to him kissed him and said "I miss you ! I still love you"! I cant answer that , He might have put his arms around me and said "Its OK baby ,we"re together now ,I love you too, its OK Why dont we just cuddle up tonite and not talk about it ?Lets just love each other" Or he could have said "Well I ll bet you do miss me! Well its too late now , Its all over , I was just saying Hi to be polite in public !!And you act like this?Dont you have any pride?God let me outta here! You are embarrassing me". Then he would laugh and walk away . The truth is it could go either way, that being a good reason to keep walking.

[harbourwoman]

I am going through the pain of ending a married relationship with an N. I may have posted to the wrong list in the forum. It's so strange how they can be so ugly and aggressive and then 2 to 6 days later, expect something nice from you. A favor, help, etc. With no acknowledgement, apology or responsibility taken for prior acts, the regular human mind (me) wants to be able to reconcile the "kind person" with the person who insults, threatens, and destroys property or reacts with physical means. I can't fathom how anyone can do the things he does and just act as if they never happened. Do they even hit his conscience? Or, as I think, it's just tucked away for later as another story for how the N was the "real" victim. It's been a almost a month since I last saw the N (he finally left my home while I was away.) At this time, I am still married to him, but am not communicating with him. My home was broken into, but I can yet prove it was him. The strange thing is that the target was the emails he'd sent me. I can't yet prove that he tore up my mail. But I know.

He called and left a civil message about a week ago, requesting we sit down and talk about matters that need to be settled. I won't even return the call.

I did file for a protective order for my home.

There is a small part of us that always hopes they will get a clue and value us enough to want to change themselves to be better people. It's not happening for him.

He's had the chance before.

Now I'm simply out of contact. It's tough. Keeping busy with work and other things, but I find it very difficult to sleep and my focus is out of kilter.

I am also trying to find a way to NOT be at court when the protective order is heard. I don't need to see him and he does not need the satisfaction of seeing me.

His goal was immigration matters for his sons and other things. Yeah there are some thing we could enjoy together, but the turn of a mood on a dime, a possibility of a brick against a jaw and the threats of slandering the reputations of people close to me just aren't worth the trouble of sharing feta cheese and tomatoes ( a favorite meal).


N wanted the wedding band and wedding ring. Essentially, he stripped me of being able to have a ring on my finger as a proper married woman for a year of separation -- but I'm just not going to argue a Walmart wedding ring, you know? I simply have given up.

N also has an addiction to certain web sites. he has a pattern.. email.. sports girls and top end cars on ebay.. Very dependable.

I used to say if I could just have him between 10 pm and 6 am, the relationship would be fine. (share a few grapes, watch Leno, whatever and sleep...)

My prior 15 year marriage was touchless, so this N knew exactly which buttons to push.

However, over and over again, I keep going back to the realization that for this N with his degree of N and jealousy, a relationship will not work.

What irks me.. I know he will tell the next one how he just needs a good woman who is really committed to a marriage with him. that I was just not committed to him and his sons..etc. and the reinvention and escapade will begin again. (I've even told him he'll do it. He *hated* hearing that.)

That thought makes me quite bitter

Thanks for the web site.

[gap]

No, relationships are not possible with narcissist. If you have grown up with narcissitic parents you know how to deal with a narcissist, once they show their true colors you get out your extra thick shoes you thought you would never have to wear once you left home and very carefully walk around on the eggshells. If you grew up with a narcissist you think maybe I make everyone that loves me behave this way. Then if you are lucky enough to finally get some help, you find out you are OK. As a matter of fact you are more then OK you just have been around really nutsty people that have no sense of self esteem and turn all their bad feelings and insecurities on to you. I think lack of empathy and denial of true self are the two characteristics that all narcissist share. Denial of true self lets them live in a world where all the behavior is OK (hence never having to say they are sorry), treat people how ever they want and be the bearer of all truths since their reality is the only realty no matter how distorted it is. One of the last time my husband of 20+ years and I were out he look at me and said "Your good looking, everyone likes you, you don't make me feel good anymore." I had just finished catching him up on the kids activities and going ons and was telling him what was on the schedule for the weekend....

[shalomrain7]

if you consider 'being used' a relationship, then my answer to this question is decidedly 'yes'.